If only this dead horse hasn't been beaten enough already... but lets take a few more swings anyways.

Mr. Vogel, the unraveling of your argument lies within the very words you typed.

Next, I notice that Mr. Harr lives in Derry, whose website touts Keystone State Park and PA Route 22 (both state-owned and maintained) as its main assets.

Both are state-owned assets. The Port Authority of Allegheny County is not state-owned. It's locally owned. If you want it to be state maintained like a state park, you should be willing to see PAT become a state asset.

Please, please, please realize there are different levels of government that are responsible for different things and rely on different tax bases and representation.

I wonder what percentage of the costs of maintaining Route 22 and Keystone Park come from the pockets of Derry residents.

We pay gasoline and income taxes out here, too. And by the way, the DNCR has seen an increase in its revenue because of the leases granted on state land for natural gas drilling, which I'm sure you support.

Do I have the option not to pay this tax?

If the transit system disappears, I recommend that I be given a refund on my school taxes

And that's an issue you'd have to take up with Allegheny County, because that's who you pay your property taxes to, not the state. Just like Mr. Harr, if he owns a home, pays into Derry's property taxes for Derry's schools.

Again, please, please, please recognize different levels of government.

Mr. Harr just can't see that what happens here will eventually affect Derry in Westmoreland County.

Here's where you're 100% wrong. He sees exactly what happens. Your county lets its public service budgets go to hell and the entire city of Pittsburgh fall under state oversight for it's budget mismanagement, and then you want people like him to help pick up the bill out of a sense of entitlement. That's how he's affected.

For those of us who work in the city, the pricing of inner-city parking makes it unreasonable to drive and park

For the third time in one post. Take this up with your city government. That's where your beef is, not Derry in Westmoreland County.

I pay a school tax even though I have never had any children in this school district. Do I have the option not to pay this tax?

op. cit.

o I have the option of my taxes not being used for wars...?

Fourth time - neither Derry, Allegheny County, nor the state of PA have anything to do with money for wars. That would be a federal issue. And yes, if you elect the right people to end the wars and lower your taxes, you can have your money back. But that has squat to do with PAT being in the red and your parking meters being overly expensive. That's your city and county.

In closing, our tax structure is not a menu to pick and choose where my tax dollars are spent.

And conversely, other county's budgets and tax bases aren't a buffet for you to pick and choose from to pay for services offered and managed exclusively within your tax jurisdiction. Fifth time - different levels of government, lateral and vertical separation...

If the transit system disappears, I recommend that I be given a refund on my school taxes.

ibid.

There are certain functions that the Goverment, both local, state, and at the Federal level are responsible for. The Constitutions, the states and the United States one, stipulate what those responsibilities are and how they are to be paid for. The bigger issue we have now is how to fund certain areas of Goverment in a manner that make economic sense just like running a Company without going into the red. Since some responsibilities of Goverment we have now are no where to be found in any Constitutions or even touched on in any of our founding documents (liberals and those on the left hate this fact) we now must fund them or let them die. The 2 ideas we get are from the left which believe, for the most part, in an excessive and progressive taxation to fund Goverment and the right which generally believes that Goverment should be run in an economical fashion, like a Business. I actually feel for those who have come to believe in some things because we are fast learning that unsustainable programs and functions of Goverment are going to become things of the past. The Port Authority will have to drastically change its methods of operations, more so when it is it's legacy costs that are killing it by a slow and painful death. P.A.T. should be treated and expected to be run like the Company it is and not a function of Goverment that can be found no where in any Constitution or founding document.

City wants a service it can't pay for. City goes to county. County goes to state. State goes to federal. Federal goes to China.

Wow, the Constitution. How about forgetting all the ideological nonsense and use common sense.

Allegheny County and in particular Pittsburgh is the economic center for surrondiong counties such as Westmorland, Washington and Fayette. Ten thousand people a day enter the U.S. Steel Tower in downtown Pittsburgh. Then there is Oakland which employes thousands at two major universities and a large medical and research center. I am almost positive many come from counties outside of Allegheny

All major metropolitan centers need a viable mass transit system to move workers to and from their jobs. Chaotic traffic and parking problems would quickly make the Pitsburgh metro area non competitive.

The ripple effect would soon negatively affect all surronding counties.

State tax dollars helping to support a mass transit system in Allegheny County seems worth it

Worth it to who, you? Have you ever actually been outside of the city for any appreciable amount of time?

boldart, if you want state funding for a county service, are you willing to have the state take over that service so the people outside that county can have representation how that money is being spent inside that service?

Or is it that you want other people's money, but want to maintain local control?

And wow, the Constitution being "ideological nonsense". Yeah, that whole separation of powers and proper level of government thing is just a bunch of pie-in-the-sky nonsense...

"ideological nonsense"? Wow now what can you say to that LOL

Here is the problem, copied directly from the Allegheny Insttue's website...

After doing it several times in the last five years, and after publicly pledging not to do it again, the board of the Southwest Pennsylvania Commission (SPC) which steers transportation money for the region, caved in to the pressure to avoid another financial catastrophe at the Port Authority. This was ostensibly done to buy time for the incoming Governor and Legislature to find a long term revenue fix for the agency.

But as we have pointed out time and again PAT has a spending problem, not a revenue problem. It exhibits operating costs that are out of line with other mass transit agencies around the country; its drivers enjoy high wages and benefits that are far out of line with other local governments, other transit agencies, and the private sector. It continues to engage in a "building binge" taking on projects that are not justified in terms of opportunity costs or return on investment. It operates as a monopoly with no competition from other regional agencies or private carriers.

In 2012 the agency's labor contract expires and with it comes a promise that there will be threats of a shutdown of the system by a labor strike should the PAT board and elected officials try to get savings from the transit union.

Can any of you dispute these facts?

What is it you do not understand about economics. The Pittsburgh metro area is the economic "bell Cow" for southwestern Pa. Next to Philadelphia, no other region produces more state tax dollars.

Your continued partisan political approach is not an answer. We are talking about a viable mass transit system that is needed to support jobs that pay state taxes that support all state services.

There is no question more state tax dollars come out of Allegheny County than any other county in southwestern Pa. To deny this fact is simply being obstinate.

LOL just ignore the facts...oh well you can kiss it goodbye then. Tell us all this there boldart, throw us some hard figures to prove your point. Just what is the percentage of tax dollars coming out of Allegheny Co,which represents 10% of the populayion

So with all of those tax dollars, they still need money from outside counties to pay for buses?

Please answer the question. If you want state funds for a local service, are you willing to turn control of that local service over to the state?

Or is it what's yours is yours and what's mine is yours?

Pitt metro-area is a tax powerhouse... yet they need people from cow-country to pay for their transportation services? How does that make any economic sense?

If you want my dollar, I want a vote in how PAT is run. It's really that simple. Otherwise, you need to figure out a way to make the numbers work on paper. Fare, routes, number of buses, number of drivers, wages, pensions, benefits, etc.

But I get the idea that you really, really, really don't want a Republican state legislature having a say in how PAT is run. You just want their money.

Funding for public schools do not only come from local sources. The state provides significant amount of funding, too. Thus, Ms. Brancato's rhetorical question is not valid from a school district perspective, it also applies at the state level.

written by boldart, February 05, 2012 - 03:01 PM What is it you do not understand about economics.

Which system? Mercantile? Socialist? Capitalist? Communist?

The Pittsburgh metro area is the economic "bell Cow" for southwestern Pa.

For the love of God (that is, if you believe in Him) it's not "bell Cow". The word you so clumsily are groping for is "bellwether".

And you lefties absolutely *love* to publically preen and socially swan about displaying for all to see how very intelligent, highly educated, smoothly polished and socially aware you all are. Oh, and caring. For "the Chilled Run®".

The thing is JohnnyB is that it will already be controlled by a Republican state legislature. It would be political suicide for any of them to give PAT the money. Even then it would need to be approved by the SPC, the same people who said this is it, get your operating costs in order and they have done nothing about it, Here's a interesting figure. We hve the fourth highest Operating cost per trip in the country at $4.44. Our brothers in Philly, who have a much more bigger and better system averages 2.95. Which is more or less the ntional average. In other words PAT loses money on every trip they make. It's not supposed to make money but then agin it is not supposed to be a money pit.

The state provides significant amount of funding, too.

And in turn has a lot of state oversight.

Once again. If PAT wants state money, they'd better be ready for state oversight.

Boldart;

The first time you & I addressed this issue, I assumed that perhaps you were simply unaware. But it increasingly begins to look like you are just very selfish.

So let me repeat; Personal per-capita income in Allegheny County exceeds that for 91% of all Pennsylvania counties (and exceeds that for all the other counties in southwestern PA). I will add that per-capita income in Allegheny County is $2500 per year higher than the per-capita average for the state.
To the point: You are substantially richer than they are!

Your insistence that we who are (relatively) rich should be subsidized by those who are (relatively) poor mostly reflects despicable greed. We should pay our own bills, and not try to mooch off of others.

written by JohnnyB, February 05, 2012 - 03:11 PM

. . .

If you want my dollar, I want a vote in how PAT is run. . .

Only those who live in Allegheny County can have a vote in how PAT is managed, albeit very indirect. The County Executive appoints, subject to review by Council. And, in my opinion, the election of 2011 saw the voters of Allegheny County resoundingly endorse "business as usual." The winner held his election night celebration at a union headquarters on the South Side.

I don't believer anyone in management has lost his/her job due to the dismal performance. In most private sector businesses, if you don't perform, you either go out of business or are replaced. And do you really think labor will be called upon for help in the spending side of the equation when union are joined at the hip with the political party that controls Allegheny County??

I am starting to notice that this whole scenario is kinda like the final days of the steel industry. A unyielding union and very weak management. I see a plan hatching here though. Basically I don't think the union has very many options at this point. They can be uncooperative and the cuts will be made, basically causing 600 of their fellow workers to be laid off and putting into jeopardy the rest of the system, or they can playball and make concessions. Personally I think Harrisburg wants them to not cooperate. Heck they probably even want them to strike. Why? well it gives them a damn good reason to do the following.

1. Pass the law that says they can't strike.

2. Bankrupt the whole thing.

3. Install a oversight board

Until the benefits and pension problems are solved no amount of funding will help. The situation will just keep spiraling higher and higher. I think they have to realize that "fast eddie" isn't in charge anymore and that the gravy train has left the station.

From dictionary.com:

bell cow
 

noun
a cow, especially the lead cow of a herd, having a bell attached to a collar around its neck so that the herd can be located easily.
Origin:
1855–60, Americanism

So without answer from any liberal, I am forced to assume you want money from the state but no state control over PAT. Ah hypocrisy.