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Opinion Reg on Wry Obama bids reality goodbye
Opinion Reg on Wry Obama bids reality goodbye
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Tuesday, 07 September 2010 09:46
Welcome back. Hope you are all rested. I had a fine weekend and decided to be a-blogging early while I was still fresh-faced and bushy-tailed.
To business then. In my opinion, the great rift from reality, which is now a feature of our national life, has largely been a right-wing phenomenon. Obama is a Muslim/Marxist born in Kenya etc.
But I must now allow that reality denial is an equal opportunity employer. I call as a witness the New York Times story that ran this morning on Page One of the Post-Gazette. “Obama Transit Proposal to Boost Economy.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10250/1085602-84.stm
It is not going to boost anything because it is not going to happen.
Obama is proposing to spend $50 billion on transportation infrastructure — roads, rail lines, airport runways. He would set up a government-run “infrastructure bank,” which would combine tax dollars with private investments. He would do this in the name of job creation.
This would be a great investment — much of the nation’s transportation infrastructure is in a serious state of disrepair.
But think of the reality of the politics— the Republicans have taken dwelling deficits as their rallying crime. They have painted government run anything as socialism and they insist the stimulus spending not only does not work but swells that deficit.
So how in earth can Obama get even fellow Democrats to support this, given that many are running for cover? And if it can’t be done, what is the point in proposing it?
I just don’t understand. Can someone please explain what Obama is up to by inviting defeat?
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written by Mugsy, September 07, 2010 - 01:03 PM
Who knows if it will get Democratic support or not, and at the least the Democrats will be able to campaign on the idea that Republicans are against job creation. The announcement of a huge infrastructure spending program, even if it is doomed to be tabled in a few weeks, is a juicy bone for orginized labor to chew with their union day...er I mean labor day burgers and beer.
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written by rockhardabs, September 07, 2010 - 02:10 PM
Reg, good you had a nice weekend.
Could it be that Obama is not the shining magical moment that a lot of you thought he was going to be? I mean, really, is that not possible?
I watch him on the tube here and there lately and I think he look as lost right now as you can get. I don't believe I have ever made a prediction on how the fall elections are going to turn out.I think you can really get your tail caught between your legs by doing that. ( Sorry Rover! ) But forget about fall, if he is not careful, he'll lose in 2012 by more than he beat McCain by.
Methinks a lot of people thought he was in the right place at the right time in the run-up. He might just have been the wrong person in the wrong place. I guess we'll see. But I don't think he has a clue.
Could it be that Obama is not the shining magical moment that a lot of you thought he was going to be? I mean, really, is that not possible?
I watch him on the tube here and there lately and I think he look as lost right now as you can get. I don't believe I have ever made a prediction on how the fall elections are going to turn out.I think you can really get your tail caught between your legs by doing that. ( Sorry Rover! ) But forget about fall, if he is not careful, he'll lose in 2012 by more than he beat McCain by.
Methinks a lot of people thought he was in the right place at the right time in the run-up. He might just have been the wrong person in the wrong place. I guess we'll see. But I don't think he has a clue.
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written by regis, September 07, 2010 - 04:30 PM
He seems to me like a rerun of Jimmy Carter--a smart man in some ways, but with a naive faith in the power of reason to bring his opponents around to reality. Americans seem to want splashy slogans and soundbites rather than a reasoned explanation. He seems unable to do that. It may redound to his credit as a human being, but it doesn't make an effective politian in modern America.
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written by rockhardabs, September 07, 2010 - 04:57 PM
regis,
Fair point. But even in the case of healthcare, do you feel he ever made the American people who were opposed to it seem like they knew what was in it. or those in favor. I don't think we do, even now.
When you say splashy headlines, please explain a little further, perhaps pointing to those items on his original agenda that could have been headlined more favorably. Thanks.
Fair point. But even in the case of healthcare, do you feel he ever made the American people who were opposed to it seem like they knew what was in it. or those in favor. I don't think we do, even now.
When you say splashy headlines, please explain a little further, perhaps pointing to those items on his original agenda that could have been headlined more favorably. Thanks.
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written by myooz, September 07, 2010 - 04:59 PM
Oh ye of such little faith. Considering the eggs he has to walk on and the fanatical powerful lobbying groups he has to contend with he has done a miraculous job of avoiding a new Middle East war with Iran for 2 years and slowly clawing his way out of the unprecidented $3 Trillion hole Cheney/Bush.
left the country in.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...02200.html
left the country in.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...02200.html
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written by myooz, September 07, 2010 - 05:10 PM
Although based on the 2004 vote I can understand a rational person's pessimism. Never underestimate the ignorance of the American voters.
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written by rockhardabs, September 07, 2010 - 05:31 PM
Reg,
Perhaps the " man with the fake tan " comment will explain a little more. Someone must have kicked some sand from the sandbox in Obama's face.
How childish.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090703421.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Perhaps the " man with the fake tan " comment will explain a little more. Someone must have kicked some sand from the sandbox in Obama's face.
How childish.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090703421.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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written by Centinel, September 07, 2010 - 06:02 PM
Sidetrack time:
Did anyone read the Krugman piece today? Economic arguments aside, because we won't agree anyways (by the way, the articles economic arguments made me taste a bit of vomit in the back of my throat), did anyone else find this statement a bit disturbing?
"...it's hard to see anything like the miracle of the 1940s happening again."
I've never really considered the economic boom that occurred in the U.S. because of a war that killed over 50 million people a "miracle." I doubt the men who were drafted and sent to fight the Japanese & Germans would consider it a "miracle" either. I'm sure that isn't *exactly* what he meant, but when you're a nationally syndicated columnist, you should learn to choose your phrasing a bit more carefully.
Just the idea that we need to imitate the conditions of a war-economy disturbs me. Command & control, rationing, etc. I think someone should tell Paul that going into war-economy mode without a war to demand the products being manufactured probably won't bring about another "miracle."
Did anyone read the Krugman piece today? Economic arguments aside, because we won't agree anyways (by the way, the articles economic arguments made me taste a bit of vomit in the back of my throat), did anyone else find this statement a bit disturbing?
"...it's hard to see anything like the miracle of the 1940s happening again."
I've never really considered the economic boom that occurred in the U.S. because of a war that killed over 50 million people a "miracle." I doubt the men who were drafted and sent to fight the Japanese & Germans would consider it a "miracle" either. I'm sure that isn't *exactly* what he meant, but when you're a nationally syndicated columnist, you should learn to choose your phrasing a bit more carefully.
Just the idea that we need to imitate the conditions of a war-economy disturbs me. Command & control, rationing, etc. I think someone should tell Paul that going into war-economy mode without a war to demand the products being manufactured probably won't bring about another "miracle."
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written by Centinel, September 07, 2010 - 06:16 PM
Another side-track:
Before letters & articles start appearing with "where is the conservative outrage..."
This conservative thinks that the pastor planning to hold a Koran-burning on 9/11 is absolutely disgusting. I couldn't think of something less constructive & more moronic than that. That being said, just like the Ground Zero Mosque, I may find it personally distasteful & offensive (the burning being much more offensive than the mosque by far), but I believe in his Constitutional right to do so.
That being said, I hope the pastor is careless and ends up neglecting some local burning ordinance.
The General is right, I think this is going to get Americans killed.
Before letters & articles start appearing with "where is the conservative outrage..."
This conservative thinks that the pastor planning to hold a Koran-burning on 9/11 is absolutely disgusting. I couldn't think of something less constructive & more moronic than that. That being said, just like the Ground Zero Mosque, I may find it personally distasteful & offensive (the burning being much more offensive than the mosque by far), but I believe in his Constitutional right to do so.
That being said, I hope the pastor is careless and ends up neglecting some local burning ordinance.
The General is right, I think this is going to get Americans killed.
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written by RFSIII, September 07, 2010 - 06:17 PM
The president recently quoted Jimi Hendrix. "They talk about me like a dog." I was waiting for him to say, "Talk about the clothes I wear." He'll have to use that one in his next speech.
Michelle won't like the next verse, "Woman here, woman there, try to keep me in a plastic cage."
Anyway, he's "stone free, to ride the breeze." But not to do what is needed.
Michelle won't like the next verse, "Woman here, woman there, try to keep me in a plastic cage."
Anyway, he's "stone free, to ride the breeze." But not to do what is needed.
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written by regis, September 07, 2010 - 07:17 PM
Abs--in a way, the health care debate is exactly the kind of failure I was thinking of. He was practically absent for most of the debate, as if he expected the self-evidend sanity of the proposal to carry the day for him. Then, at the first sign of opposition, he dropped the public option idea, rather than going on TV, as Reagan would have, to argue to the voters for its importance.
He appears to be upset by the extreme partisanship gripping the country. So are most of us. But I don't think you solve the problem by letting the other side frame the question on every issue. Compromise does not mean giving in on everything. He seems to have no judgment on where to make a stand.
He appears to be upset by the extreme partisanship gripping the country. So are most of us. But I don't think you solve the problem by letting the other side frame the question on every issue. Compromise does not mean giving in on everything. He seems to have no judgment on where to make a stand.
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written by Mugsy, September 07, 2010 - 07:36 PM
Regis, while I may disagree with you on the self-evident sanity of the proposal, I do agree that the administration probably tried to hedge their bets on healthcare by trying to ride the fence.President Reagen believed that he knew the minds of the people and was offering them something that they wanted. I'm not so certain that President Obama shares, or even should share, that optimistic viewpoint.
As for what America wants in an election, watch all of the eight second sound bytes and pre-packaged catchy phrases over the next few months, it's what campaigning is all about, and it's repulsive. I happen to like liberals more than the perpetually undecided, because while I may disagree with liberals at least I respect that they are engaged in the process. Apathy is a huge problem.
As for what America wants in an election, watch all of the eight second sound bytes and pre-packaged catchy phrases over the next few months, it's what campaigning is all about, and it's repulsive. I happen to like liberals more than the perpetually undecided, because while I may disagree with liberals at least I respect that they are engaged in the process. Apathy is a huge problem.
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written by rockhardabs, September 07, 2010 - 07:52 PM
Centinel,
It's Krugman being Krugman. I was going to bring it up yesterday, but I guess I thought I'd get slammed like I usually do for stating an opinion about Paully .
Love the vomit description.
It's Krugman being Krugman. I was going to bring it up yesterday, but I guess I thought I'd get slammed like I usually do for stating an opinion about Paully .
Love the vomit description.
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written by rockhardabs, September 07, 2010 - 07:59 PM
Regis,
Thanks for the response. His weakness and inability to take a firm stand are items that we who preached about those very items mentioned before the election.
But the halo was in place, and a complicit media rode the horse for all they could.
The gleam is noticeably absent from Katie, Brian, etc.
Thanks for the response. His weakness and inability to take a firm stand are items that we who preached about those very items mentioned before the election.
But the halo was in place, and a complicit media rode the horse for all they could.
The gleam is noticeably absent from Katie, Brian, etc.
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written by RFSIII, September 07, 2010 - 08:13 PM
The president is probably not 'Stone Free' to rebuild much of the industry that went overseas. The US is a debtor nation to China, which makes most of our counsumer goods.
China got its share of the market by subsidising it's export indutries, and by selling consumer goods to us at below cost, until the getting was good to raise prices. This is exactly what the US needs to do, but is probably too far beholden to risk bad relations with China. This and reversing, by law, outsourcing jobs would be a plan for sustainable economic regrowth. Short of that, all there is left is unsustainable plans such as the one mentioned above.
I wish it was possible to get the public behind a cohesive plan of action. To the good, Obama is reversing some predatory banking practices.
China got its share of the market by subsidising it's export indutries, and by selling consumer goods to us at below cost, until the getting was good to raise prices. This is exactly what the US needs to do, but is probably too far beholden to risk bad relations with China. This and reversing, by law, outsourcing jobs would be a plan for sustainable economic regrowth. Short of that, all there is left is unsustainable plans such as the one mentioned above.
I wish it was possible to get the public behind a cohesive plan of action. To the good, Obama is reversing some predatory banking practices.
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written by Mugsy, September 07, 2010 - 10:09 PM
RFS111, as a huge debtor nation to china, and one of the largest if not the largest customer of China, we are exactly not in a position of being to beholden to them to risk bad relations. The MAD doctrine can apply just as well to macro-economics as it does to nuclear warfare, and our friends over in the People's Republic are just as good of capitalists as we are, really.
As for subsidizing our exports, I doubt that we will see that any time soon.That is though, as I recall, what happened to cause the loss of our steel industry.
As for subsidizing our exports, I doubt that we will see that any time soon.That is though, as I recall, what happened to cause the loss of our steel industry.
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written by fhornplayer83, September 07, 2010 - 10:24 PM
@Centinel
"This conservative thinks that the pastor planning to hold a Koran-burning on 9/11 is absolutely disgusting."
Hear, hear! Loved every word of your post.
"This conservative thinks that the pastor planning to hold a Koran-burning on 9/11 is absolutely disgusting."
Hear, hear! Loved every word of your post.
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written by Centinel, September 07, 2010 - 10:42 PM
Seems you're the only one, though no one actually says why...
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written by Quipman, September 07, 2010 - 11:10 PM
The Republicans are going all in on the majority of Americans citizens being idiots. You know just like the people who dominate their base. Devoid of all reality screaming about the deficit when America is falling apart at the seams. I believe there is no better time than now to repair America's infrastructure which is falling apart at the very time when because of the p**s poor Republican free for all over the last eight years with the support of nearly 30 years of bad Republican policy has brought this great country of ours almost to its very knees. Oh ya president Obama is operating in reality. Its vision-less citizens like you who can't see the big picture that are left scratching their heads in wonder. Keep scratching, keep scratching as the man of vision , smarts and intellectual thinking guides America from the abyss. Maybe if some Americans would stop looking at his face and start listening to what is coming out of his mouth they would learn something.
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written by RFSIII, September 07, 2010 - 11:17 PM
Mugsy,
"RFS111, as a huge debtor nation to china, and one of the largest if not the largest customer of China, we are exactly not in a position of being to beholden to them to risk bad relations. The MAD doctrine can apply just as well to macro-economics as it does to nuclear warfare, and our friends over in the People's Republic are just as good of capitalists as we are, really.
As for subsidizing our exports, I doubt that we will see that any time soon.That is though, as I recall, what happened to cause the loss of our steel industry."
What I meant was to subsidise domestic manufacturing and sell at below cost here. The idea is to rebuild the industrial base, ground up. I don't see any other plan for sustainable jobs. Status quo, the American manufacturer can't compete with China.
I was thinking our gov is not likely to antagonize China, and is instead focusing on anything they either can't or isn't now dominating.
Are you saying that the US can risk making them angry? Any thoughts on forcing out-sourced jobs back to the US?
"RFS111, as a huge debtor nation to china, and one of the largest if not the largest customer of China, we are exactly not in a position of being to beholden to them to risk bad relations. The MAD doctrine can apply just as well to macro-economics as it does to nuclear warfare, and our friends over in the People's Republic are just as good of capitalists as we are, really.
As for subsidizing our exports, I doubt that we will see that any time soon.That is though, as I recall, what happened to cause the loss of our steel industry."
What I meant was to subsidise domestic manufacturing and sell at below cost here. The idea is to rebuild the industrial base, ground up. I don't see any other plan for sustainable jobs. Status quo, the American manufacturer can't compete with China.
I was thinking our gov is not likely to antagonize China, and is instead focusing on anything they either can't or isn't now dominating.
Are you saying that the US can risk making them angry? Any thoughts on forcing out-sourced jobs back to the US?
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written by born2run, September 07, 2010 - 11:20 PM
Centinel,
I don't think Krugman is advocating a war economy - he is advocating government spending to stimulate our stagnant economy. It happens that the example he has used is the spending during WW II - would you disagree that this was a good use of government debt?
Would you disagree that our nation's infrastructure is in bad shape, and needs a large investment to keep up with the times? Transfer the debt needed to win WW II to the debt needed to restore our infrastructure, and you have the makings of a recovery strategy.
I don't think Krugman is advocating a war economy - he is advocating government spending to stimulate our stagnant economy. It happens that the example he has used is the spending during WW II - would you disagree that this was a good use of government debt?
Would you disagree that our nation's infrastructure is in bad shape, and needs a large investment to keep up with the times? Transfer the debt needed to win WW II to the debt needed to restore our infrastructure, and you have the makings of a recovery strategy.
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written by rockhardabs, September 07, 2010 - 11:20 PM
Centinel,
Here's why:
I may find it personally distasteful & offensive (the burning being much more offensive than the mosque by far), but I believe in his Constitutional right to do so.
Thou has said it.
He has a right to do it. For those who think the dissing of the religion is abhorrent, think about how Catholics feel when shock radio shows in the morning entice morons to have sex in our churches, Robert Mapplethorpe creates " PissChrist" , with a crucifix inside a bottle of urine, while this " art" is funded by the National Endowment of the Arts, etc....
Lest anyone is getting ready to blast me, I have complete and utter understanding that our troops could be in harms way over this, compared to my examples. That is more than unfortunate. But I'm not going to get caught up in the hysteria. I'll say a prayer instead.
Here's why:
I may find it personally distasteful & offensive (the burning being much more offensive than the mosque by far), but I believe in his Constitutional right to do so.
Thou has said it.
He has a right to do it. For those who think the dissing of the religion is abhorrent, think about how Catholics feel when shock radio shows in the morning entice morons to have sex in our churches, Robert Mapplethorpe creates " PissChrist" , with a crucifix inside a bottle of urine, while this " art" is funded by the National Endowment of the Arts, etc....
Lest anyone is getting ready to blast me, I have complete and utter understanding that our troops could be in harms way over this, compared to my examples. That is more than unfortunate. But I'm not going to get caught up in the hysteria. I'll say a prayer instead.
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written by myooz, September 07, 2010 - 11:31 PM
born2run,.
Thanks for seeing what Krugman was obviously saying.
Thanks for seeing what Krugman was obviously saying.
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written by Tourist, September 07, 2010 - 11:32 PM
Rocky:
It’s been a while, but this is the second time someone has brought up “Piss Christ.” You know that it is a photograph – not a bottle – a stunningly beautiful photograph, one of a series using various liquids, including milk. The artist is Andres Serrano.
Have you ever read the descriptions at the Warhol Museum of how some of those works were produced?
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written by RFSIII, September 07, 2010 - 11:49 PM
any thoughts on re-doing Reagan's supply side economics? Seems the concept was mishandled, first time around, and might need another chance.
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written by Centinel, September 07, 2010 - 11:51 PM
So you can't make the connection as to why a Christian may be abhorred by a photograph of their crucified savior submerged in urine? Pardon my lack of artistic taste, but I don't see anything stunning about it besides its offensive callousness.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 12:16 AM
"Are you saying that the US can risk making them angry? Any thoughts on forcing out-sourced jobs back to the US? "
I think it would be better expressed to say that it doesn't matter as much as we might think. What are they going to do, call in the debts? They have to do business in the same marketplace as we do, I can't imagine the havoc that would ensue if we were forced under. When it comes to consumption, of anything, we are the gold standard. We should never approach them hat in hand, so to speak.
As for forcing back outsourced jobs, I don't think that's our cup of meat. The industries that have outsourced jobs have the right to do so, how would we force them back?
Tourist, you miss the larger point. The culture, at least in some part, shows utter disdain for Christians and Jews, yet trips over itself to atempt to protect the tender sensitivities of Muslims.
Having said that, we should show respect for this faith and not burn their scripture, not because it's the required thing to do but because it's the right thing to do. I hope that we don't burn Koran's, it will serve no useful purpose.
I did, however, support the trashing of Disco albums in Chicago during the "Disco Sucks" night at the White Sox game. Must be an impurity in my idealism.
I think it would be better expressed to say that it doesn't matter as much as we might think. What are they going to do, call in the debts? They have to do business in the same marketplace as we do, I can't imagine the havoc that would ensue if we were forced under. When it comes to consumption, of anything, we are the gold standard. We should never approach them hat in hand, so to speak.
As for forcing back outsourced jobs, I don't think that's our cup of meat. The industries that have outsourced jobs have the right to do so, how would we force them back?
Tourist, you miss the larger point. The culture, at least in some part, shows utter disdain for Christians and Jews, yet trips over itself to atempt to protect the tender sensitivities of Muslims.
Having said that, we should show respect for this faith and not burn their scripture, not because it's the required thing to do but because it's the right thing to do. I hope that we don't burn Koran's, it will serve no useful purpose.
I did, however, support the trashing of Disco albums in Chicago during the "Disco Sucks" night at the White Sox game. Must be an impurity in my idealism.
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written by RFSIII, September 08, 2010 - 12:23 AM
Mugsy,
Maybe desperate times call for desperate measures. Maybe a law that jobs can't go overseas is timely. It doesn't fit the global free trade model, but some healthy isolationism might be necessary.
Maybe desperate times call for desperate measures. Maybe a law that jobs can't go overseas is timely. It doesn't fit the global free trade model, but some healthy isolationism might be necessary.
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written by ciejai, September 08, 2010 - 12:34 AM
Adam Smith, 1776. Jane Fonda, 1967. Diss Christ, 1987.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 01:08 AM
Mugsy:
“Tourist, you miss the larger point.”
There’s always that risk. I was not, however, this time, intending to make any point at all – merely getting a few facts about “Piss Christ” on the table.
“The culture, at least in some part, shows utter disdain for Christians and Jews, yet trips over itself to attempt to protect the tender sensitivities of Muslims.”
Christians and Jews need equal protecting in the United States right now?
See the “offensive callousness” (Centinel) of “Piss Christ” if you want to. The artist has said it is a comment on the commercialization and cheapening of Christian icons in modern culture. An art critic (Catholic nun) said she finds it not blasphemous but a statement on "what we have done to Christ." (Those accounts from wiki.)
Eye of the beholder, but it’s at least ambiguous.
The positive argument for burning Korans would be what?
===
Hint re Warhol: Urine was a fave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File
iss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 01:10 AM
I keep forgetting to make the links live.
iss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File
iss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...urning.JPG
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 01:12 AM
And it seems I'm required to copy them right, too.
iss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File
iss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 01:13 AM
Nope. That problem ain't me. Use common sense. Shorten it to once.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 01:14 AM
I did not use emoticons either. This is Joomla.
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written by Centinel, September 08, 2010 - 02:12 AM
I don't see any positive aspects of burning the Koran, I called it flat-out "disgusting".
What my eye beholds for the art is a very tasteless and disrespectful way to highlight a fault of modern society. Whatever the artists was trying to communicate, he missed the mark with me. You don't call attention to the poor treatment of something by treating it poorly.
What my eye beholds for the art is a very tasteless and disrespectful way to highlight a fault of modern society. Whatever the artists was trying to communicate, he missed the mark with me. You don't call attention to the poor treatment of something by treating it poorly.
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written by Fred_PA_2000, September 08, 2010 - 02:27 AM
More to the point, the argument for raising taxes comes now (thereby further depressing the current economy), while the infra-structure projects come in two to three years (when, if we get any sort of normalcy, the recession should be well behind us).
Obama seems to lack common sense / pragmatism -- at least in the economic realm.
Obama seems to lack common sense / pragmatism -- at least in the economic realm.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 02:28 AM
Centinel:
"You don't call attention to the poor treatment of something by treating it poorly."
That is precisely what an artist might do.
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written by rockhardabs, September 08, 2010 - 08:26 AM
I see Obama as one of those clouds in the sky that sorta looks like something.One sees one thing, another sees something totally different. In the run up, I think a lot of his admirers saw something very much different than people like me did. He was elected, the wind blew a little and pffft, the image of the miracle was gone.
Chris Matthews was damn near in tears last night in trying to understand what has happened. The charge of excitement running down his leg was created so many months ago by already weak batteries.
Chris Matthews was damn near in tears last night in trying to understand what has happened. The charge of excitement running down his leg was created so many months ago by already weak batteries.
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written by rockhardabs, September 08, 2010 - 08:28 AM
I should add that it obviously doesn't take much to give Chris a big time thrill.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 09:10 AM
"Christians and Jews need equal protecting in the United States right now?"
We don't dole out equal protection according to need, Christians and Jews are due equal protection at any time, just as Muslims, Hindu's and Atheists are.
As for the artist and his work that are under consideration, you may recall my pet theory that all of the good artwork has been produced by previous generations of artists, there's simply nothing of value left to illustrate or say, so we stumble along producing this sort of thing and calling it art. It truly is a matter of opinion, so anybody who wants to is free to see the point of this as a statement of what we have done to Christ. I would like to have thought that children outgrow the urge to play in their own waste, but perhaps there is a lucrative use for it after all.
We don't dole out equal protection according to need, Christians and Jews are due equal protection at any time, just as Muslims, Hindu's and Atheists are.
As for the artist and his work that are under consideration, you may recall my pet theory that all of the good artwork has been produced by previous generations of artists, there's simply nothing of value left to illustrate or say, so we stumble along producing this sort of thing and calling it art. It truly is a matter of opinion, so anybody who wants to is free to see the point of this as a statement of what we have done to Christ. I would like to have thought that children outgrow the urge to play in their own waste, but perhaps there is a lucrative use for it after all.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 09:13 AM
Rocky:
“I see Obama as one of those clouds in the sky that sorta looks like something . . . . He was elected, the wind blew a little and pffft, the image of the miracle was gone.”
Big changes take time, for the worse as well as for the better.
Somewhere in the universe, the center of a galaxy has just exploded. It may take thousands of years for the wave to reach some of the star systems in that galaxy, but the planets in those star systems are already doomed.
In the wake of W, it was and is about getting us back onto the cliff. Whether Obama could ever be the miracle worker, whether it was reasonable to believe that he was, or reasonable to at least hope, or to hang on to the hope, if not, we do not bounce back from this.
Day One: Want him to fail.
===
Yes, I semi-repeat myself. I’m old. I’m getting tired.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 09:25 AM
Mugsy:
Your “pet theory that all of the good artwork has been produced by previous generations” remains one of the most intriguing propositions ever advanced here. I don’t remember (haven’t looked) how much we ever got into it, but we should. It’s a question at the highest level. Children playing in waste is so entirely different.
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written by Centinel, September 08, 2010 - 12:14 PM
"That is precisely what an artist might do."
Yes, they might. But that doesn't make their art admirable.
Taking a photo of a cross in urine and calling it "art" to draw attention to an issue reminds me of the kind of thing you would expect from a shock-jock on a morning radio show.
Yes, they might. But that doesn't make their art admirable.
Taking a photo of a cross in urine and calling it "art" to draw attention to an issue reminds me of the kind of thing you would expect from a shock-jock on a morning radio show.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 01:07 PM
"Taking a photo of a cross in urine and calling it "art" to draw attention to an issue reminds me of the kind of thing you would expect from a shock-jock on a morning radio show. "
That's a great point, Centinel, and I believe this is a part of a genre known as "shock art".The problem with shock art, or shock jocks, etc, is that you need to continually up the ante. What was shocking yesterday is, after all, passe today.
That's a great point, Centinel, and I believe this is a part of a genre known as "shock art".The problem with shock art, or shock jocks, etc, is that you need to continually up the ante. What was shocking yesterday is, after all, passe today.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 01:14 PM
" Children playing in waste is so entirely different"
You are correct, of course, my comment was snarky and rhetorical. At times one simply can't resist, despite better intentions.
You are correct, of course, my comment was snarky and rhetorical. At times one simply can't resist, despite better intentions.
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written by rockhardabs, September 08, 2010 - 02:03 PM
Tourist,
Thanks on the correction on who created my mentioned piece of " art ".
But we obviously disagree on what is and isn't beautiful art.
Thanks on the correction on who created my mentioned piece of " art ".
But we obviously disagree on what is and isn't beautiful art.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 05:14 PM
Mugsy:
“At times one simply can't resist, despite better intentions.”
Guilty. And I can’t always claim better intentions.
Rocky:
“But we obviously disagree on what is and isn't beautiful art.”
Are you sure that we do?
Mugsy and Centinel:
Is the photograph visually shocking, or is it the explanation, or the title? What if the truth was water, iodine and detergent?
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written by rockhardabs, September 08, 2010 - 05:29 PM
Wow! How about that Dana Milbank, huh?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090704159.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090704159.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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written by rockhardabs, September 08, 2010 - 05:35 PM
Tourist,
I'm sure not all, but I have strong feelings like Centinel's when it comes to PC.
I'm sure not all, but I have strong feelings like Centinel's when it comes to PC.
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written by Centinel, September 08, 2010 - 06:17 PM
I don't care if its lemon-flavored Kool Aid. If the intent is to replicate urine, then I find it to be immature and in poor taste. Perception is reality, and if I'm supposed to perceive urine, then it may as well be that. This really shouldn't be one of you exercises in psycho-analysis, whatever it is you're digging for, you aren't seeing the forest through the trees with what my point is.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 06:36 PM
Centinel:
So Serrano successfully jerks you around with a single word.
That's powerful art.
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written by Centinel, September 08, 2010 - 06:48 PM
Not really. The art itself doesn't illicit anymore of a real life response from me other than 'wow, that's stupid'. But if we're talking about it, which we are, ill elaborate as to why.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 06:55 PM
Tourist, there are alot of words that have jerked people around through the years, I suppose some of them were art, but hardly all.I dare not repeat them, they are offensive.
I suppose that when Nazi's fashioned lampshades from the skin of the jews that they had murdered some may have considered it an artistic statement, reflecting on the treatment that the Jews were receiving at their hands, while others may have considered it a crass and vulgar act consistent with the crassness and vulgarity of their culture.
Not all things that make us gasp are uplifting.
If we are to define art as anything that moves us to thought or emotion, then I suppose that any external stimulus is art. What a world of possabilities that congers up.
I suppose that when Nazi's fashioned lampshades from the skin of the jews that they had murdered some may have considered it an artistic statement, reflecting on the treatment that the Jews were receiving at their hands, while others may have considered it a crass and vulgar act consistent with the crassness and vulgarity of their culture.
Not all things that make us gasp are uplifting.
If we are to define art as anything that moves us to thought or emotion, then I suppose that any external stimulus is art. What a world of possabilities that congers up.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 07:26 PM
Mugsy:
Thank you. That’s a far more thoughtful response than “stupid,” “immature” and “poor taste.”
I think any definition of art has to include an artist manipulating the stimuli for a communicative purpose, not a stimulus alone; but that would, admittedly, leave it open-ended. Our humanity then puts some things beyond the pale. Lampshades.
The Mona Lisa is a pretty portrait that everyone seems to like.
Somewhere in the middle, we get challenged, pushed, made uncomfortable, sometimes by the truth. I can’t understand or explain everything I feel – react to, one way or another – any more than anyone else can, but it’s an internal conversation worth having.
Good taste is tasteless, the saying goes.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 07:39 PM
Tourist, I believe that we will agree on this: The definition of art is so unique to the individual and so utterly subjective as to leave it nearly impossable to pin down. I'm not sure that the work in question is not art, or simply is art that I don't like. The issue with most who find the particulair work, or any work, offensive is the support that the artist may or may not receive from the NEA. The founders left us with a rather open debate when they spoke of support for the "useful" arts. I suppose that your definition, and mine, and anybody elses may be equally good, but somehow we need to differentiate between the useful arts and somebody simply trying to elicit a response when we decide where to distribute recourses.
As for me, I like those pictures of dogs playing poker.
As for me, I like those pictures of dogs playing poker.
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written by born2run, September 08, 2010 - 09:06 PM
Fred,
There is no a connection between raising taxes and spending money on infrastructure. These kinds of projects are usually paid for by borrowing money, the same way that businesses borrow money for capital improvements. There are likely hundreds of projects that could be started almost immediately if the money was available. Just look at the needs in PA alone.
As you point out, if the economy makes a reasonable recovery in a few years, the money to pay of this debt will be available. This type of spending is an investment in the future.
There is no a connection between raising taxes and spending money on infrastructure. These kinds of projects are usually paid for by borrowing money, the same way that businesses borrow money for capital improvements. There are likely hundreds of projects that could be started almost immediately if the money was available. Just look at the needs in PA alone.
As you point out, if the economy makes a reasonable recovery in a few years, the money to pay of this debt will be available. This type of spending is an investment in the future.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 10:16 PM
Hi there Ooze;
I used an example that I was familiar with from previously, with lampshades made from Jewish skin. I was surprised to learn that this was in question, so I looked and found informmation on other websites, at least as reputable as Wiki, suggesting that the allegation is true. Additionally, a German court that tried the woman, the "b***h of Buchenwald', noted lampshades found in her residence made of Jewish skin, most certainly made by somebody.
You may not find the particulair occurence credible and that's okay, but you will certainly agree, I hope, that German culture in the '30s and '40's was hostile to the jews and this was reflected in all aspects, including art, in their culture?
So my point remains, not all expression that stimulates the senses is necessarily artistic, some is just a crude and vulgar representation of the lowest forms of hatred, such as anti-semetism.
----------------------------------------------------
3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three specimens are tattooed human skin.
For the Commanding Officer,
[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/forensic.html
Sources: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6, pp. 123-124, The Nizkor Project.
I used an example that I was familiar with from previously, with lampshades made from Jewish skin. I was surprised to learn that this was in question, so I looked and found informmation on other websites, at least as reputable as Wiki, suggesting that the allegation is true. Additionally, a German court that tried the woman, the "b***h of Buchenwald', noted lampshades found in her residence made of Jewish skin, most certainly made by somebody.
You may not find the particulair occurence credible and that's okay, but you will certainly agree, I hope, that German culture in the '30s and '40's was hostile to the jews and this was reflected in all aspects, including art, in their culture?
So my point remains, not all expression that stimulates the senses is necessarily artistic, some is just a crude and vulgar representation of the lowest forms of hatred, such as anti-semetism.
----------------------------------------------------
3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three specimens are tattooed human skin.
For the Commanding Officer,
[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/forensic.html
Sources: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6, pp. 123-124, The Nizkor Project.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 10:18 PM
Now, for the record Ooze, you're not questioning the pictures of the dogs playing poker, right?
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 10:26 PM
Hi born2run, I agree with the premise that an investment in the economy can result in greater tax revenues, in effect a return on the investment. What many people question, however, is the ability of the government to invest this money efficiently. Are you satisfied that the previously spent stimulous money was well planned, as well as well monitored? Even Paul Krugman was quoted as saying that the plan did not provide for enough stimulous and for that reason fell short, so where is the evidence that the current plan would be sufficient and would be spent in an efficient fashion, or does such evidence exist? I don't guess that it is an exact science, but it seems confusing as to how they arrive at the numbers and how they determine where to spend the money, and I wonder if the plan actually involves anything more than throwing money at the problem in hopes that it sticks?
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 10:28 PM
Mugsy:
I personally think the dogs were just posed. I could be wrong.
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written by Mugsy, September 08, 2010 - 10:36 PM
Tourist;
I can live with the knowledge that the 1919 White Sox, the very team of Shoeless Joe Jackson, threw the series.
I can live with the knowledge that the 64K dollar question was fixed.
I can live knowing that the check isn't in the mail, the guy from the government isn't here to help, and one other thing that escapes my recollection.
But please, really, not the dogs.
I can live with the knowledge that the 1919 White Sox, the very team of Shoeless Joe Jackson, threw the series.
I can live with the knowledge that the 64K dollar question was fixed.
I can live knowing that the check isn't in the mail, the guy from the government isn't here to help, and one other thing that escapes my recollection.
But please, really, not the dogs.
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written by Tourist, September 08, 2010 - 10:44 PM
Mugsy:
I have no inside information. I was kicking around alternatives. It's how we gain confidence in our conclusions. In truth, I don't see how they could be anything other than real.
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written by myooz, September 09, 2010 - 02:45 AM
I hate to see a grown man cry ugsy. The lampshades, dogs and WMD's were real. Feel better now?
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