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It started, as all good arguments seem to, while bellied up to a bar.

I was at a place called Knockback Nat's in Cincinnati in November when Steelers played there. The place was packed with Pittsburgh fans, which is not surprising considering that a black and gold takeover of the Queen City has become something of an annual tradition there.

Anyway, I'm waiting for my pint, standing next to a pair of Giants fans -- one from Staten Island, one from Rahway, N.J., who were in Cincinnati for an extended period for their work. We made conversation, and they casually remarked how impressed they were at the traveling Pittsburgh road show.

Talk turned to football in general, then quarterbacks and the common link of Ben Roethlisberger and the Giants' Eli Manning in the 2004 NFL Draft.

"Ben's good but we got the bettah quahtahback by fah."

That's highly debatable, I said. Admittedly, I only see Manning on the occasions that the Giants are on national TV, and while I knew he was pretty darn good, I've never been one to put him in that 'elite' category.

You'd think I just insulted their mothers.

"Bro - seriously - bro! Bro! What's Ben Roethlisbuhgah evah dunn?

Well, he's won two Super Bowls. OK, so  maybe he won one, and the other his team won almost in spite of him, but make no mistake, he got them there.

They were having none of it. That they were such New Yorker caricature-types -- think Vinnie & Ronnie from Jersey Shore but 20 years older -- and so adamant about it made it all the more hilarious.

"Bro! Bro! Big Ben did nothing in the Super Bowl except that last drive and it was against the Cardinals. Eli Manning beat the TOM BRADY AND THE GREATEST TEAM EVAH when he beat the Pats in the Supah Bowl! Bro! Bro! "

That last drive in Super Bowl XLIII was among the greatest in football history, and let's be honest - Eli Manning didn't exactly light the world on fire against the Pats; David Tyree made one of the all-time great catches and the Giants' defense was dominant in that game. I wasn't anti-Eli, just thought Ben was better.

The whole exchange was a bit amusing and I didn't really think of it again until the playoffs. Eli was simply amazing (as he was down the regular season stretch), and not just passing, but by standing in the pocket and taking a beating. And now, he's led the Giants to another Super Bowl victory, again over those same over-achieving and easy-to-loathe Patriots. Manning is elite. The New York mooks were right about that much.

But is he better than Roethlisberger?

Right now -- at this moment -- it'd be hard to say he isn't, if only by the tip of the nose of a football. Super Bowl XLVI was his finest hour (though the same was true of Big Ben after Super Bowl XLIII). They each have two Super Bowl wins. Their career stats are nearly a wash: in 7 more games played, Eli has exactly 1,000 more yards passing and 20 more touchdowns, but also 29 more picks; Ben's has 10 more rushing TDs and his rating is 10 points higher. Roethlisberger has slightly higher averages in a handful of categories and has taken 120 more sacks. 

Roethlisberger and Manning are 1-1 against each other. The two will play against each other at some point in 2012 for the rubber match (early prediction: it'll be the Thursday night season opener).

There's not a "right" answer to which is better. They're 1 and 1a. Nearly identical. And they're both just now hitting their prime - it will be exciting to watch these two over the next few years. I'm of the opinion that Roethlisberger - with those tweaks that Art Rooney spoke of - can win another Super Bowl. Maybe Manning too. Great years lie ahead for both of them.

In the mean time, its good fodder for a bar argument (as in my case) -- like Marino vs. Elway, except already with many more Super Bowl wins between Ben & Eli.

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Congratulations to Steelers legends Dermontti Dawson and Jack Butler, who, as first reported by Ed Bouchette, will enter the Pro Football Hall of Fame as part of the Class of 2012.

It was a great day for Pittsburgh sports in general, as the class also included Pitt Panthers Chris Doleman, and Curtis Martin -- a Pittsburgh native who played at Allderdice. Butler is also a Pittsburgh native. 

Some very brief highlights of Dirt Dawson.

Here is a highlight video of Butler's career.

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"I bet they fine James Harrison jus' fer watchin' Tom Brady get sacked!"

Another excellent installment. Enjoy:

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His career stats are shockingly pedestrian: a 62-63-4 record with 173 touchdown passes against 220 interceptions.

Though he was the first quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards in a season (and a 14-game one at that), he didn’t even have a touchdown pass in the biggest game he played in and is most associated with – Super Bowl III in which he backed up his famous guarantee of victory and was named game MVP.

But cursory glances at the statistics of Joe Willie Namath of Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, don’t even begin to capture the impact that he had on professional football, and the culture at large. He is simply put, the biggest star – bar none – to ever play the game, and truly was “Mick Jagger in a football uniform.”

That’s how sportswriter Sal Marchiano aptly describes Namath in the HBO documentary “Namath” which premieres tonight at 9 p.m.

Narrated by actor Liev Schreiber, the film follows Namath’s life from Beaver Falls to the University of Alabama to the New York Jets and the absolute zenith of stardom – on and off the football field. It continues with a painful decline as a player, fighting his personal demon of alcoholism, and back to Beaver Falls to be honored this past September.

If Namath is the star of this film, Beaver Falls wins for a best supporting role.

The film starts and ends in the town, with shots of the high school football stadium, and indeed the first 12 minutes are dedicated to growing up in industrial, post-war Beaver Falls. It’s filled with excellent old pictures and videos that capture the essence of a bygone place that exists in the mind’s eye, and the town as it is today.

Interviews with his brother Frank and sister Rita – who lovingly called him a ‘pain in the ass’ -- and childhood friends give a real sense of the man. You can see how he was so able to easily navigate his celebrity with such confidence – his Western Pennsylvania background kept him incredibly grounded

Throughout the 90-minute piece, the setting returns frequently to his boyhood home -- Maria’s Kitchen, Fubio’s barber shop, to name a few stops – for memories and testimonials about Namath, before ending there, where Namath was honored before a high school football game in September, the 50^th anniversary of his 1961 championship team.

“If it wasn’t for these people, ol’ Joe might’ve been someplace else altogether,” he said. “It’ll always be Beaver Falls and Joe Namath.”

That the documentary is heavy on the Western Pennsylvania aspects of Namath’s life and personality, might not be an accident – the producer is Mt. Lebanon native Keith Cossrow.

Throughout it, Namath is incredibly frank and very funny (the scene when he talks about his mother Rose visiting his Manhattan playboy apartment, with its mirrored-ceiling bedroom, is hilarious). Namath has such a natural, disarming charm and a Cheshire grin that he could steal your girlfriend – and he probably stole more than a few – and you’d buy him and drink thank him afterwards.

Not that Namath would accept said drink, at least not anymore.

That wasn't always the case. Namath's love of drink and carousing started in high school and got him in scrapes in college and professionally. He used it as his personal painkiller for his wracked body while still playing, and it nearly ended his marriage in retirement. By his own admission almost killed him when he did get divorced some years later.

His ultimate embarrassment came on national television in 2003 when he famously made a sloppy, on-air drunken pass at ESPN reporter Suzy Kolber. Kolber had never spoken publicly about it until this – and is forgiving of Namath’s antics.

As a disclaimer: Namath played his last game in professional football 26 days after I was born. I’ve only seen him play on highlight reels. And to me, while the football stuff was certainly interesting, I found more compelling the elements of his (and some of America’s) history: old Beaver Falls; Namath’s discussion of race relations and how he was in the crowd when the University of Alabama was integrated by federal decree; his bachelor days in a very liberated late-1960’s New York; his honesty about his struggles with the bottle.

Viewers have come to expect excellence with HBO Sports productions and this is no different. Make a point to watch it.

Namath premieres tonight at 9 p.m. on HBO. Other HBO playdates: Jan. 31, Feb. 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 15, and 17; HBO2 playdates: Jan. 30, Feb. 6, 18, 21, 26, 29. Check listings for times. It is also available on HBO On Demand from Jan. 30-Feb. 28