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Sunday, 12 February 2012 16:28

Written by Mike White

The WPIAL will announce basketball playoff pairings and brackets Tuesday evening. I'll take a shot at making seedings and pairings - to a certain extent. There are more than 20 teams in the Class AAA and AA brackets. Sorry, I'm not into making those preliminary-round games pairings because I can't predict how the WPIAL will make those pairings. There seems to be a different school of thought among WPIAL basketball committee members on how those preliminary-round teams should be seeded.

So, I'm just sayin':

(seeds are in parentheses)

CLASS AAAA

Here are some questions that make this class a little hard to seed: What do you do with Butler, Seneca Valley and Central Catholic, because they all tied for third place in Section 3 and Central Catholic had the best record in head-to-head among the three? Other questions are who gets the No. 1 seed, Chartiers Valley or Shaler? But if Peters Township-Norwin is the play-in game, Char Valley would have to be No. 2 because Char Valley is in Peters Township's section and can't play Peters in the first round.

What do you do with Hempfield and Penn-Trafford? They tied for first in Section 1 and where do you put those two? Should they be seeded right behind each other? What do you do with Kiski Area? Kiski has a good record for a third-place team (16-6), but Section 1 is thought of as the weakest of the four sections.

One of the problems you have in brackets is making sure teams from the same section do not play each other in the first round. That could move a team two or three seeds in either direction. As you can see below, I have Central Catholic as a 11 seed and Penn-Trafford No. 6. No way do I think Central is a No. 11. But I don't want to put Central at No. 9 against No. 8 Gateway. And I can't put Central at No. 10 because I have North Allegheny at No. 7, and they would have to play in the first round, which can't happen because they are in the same section.

I don't think Penn-Trafford is necessarily a No. 6 seed and Central Catholic No. 12. But Penn-Trafford did tie for its section title, and Central Catholic did lose six section games.

Here is what I came up with:

Peters Township vs. Norwin in preliminary-round game.

In first-round games, Shaler (1) vs. Peters Township-Norwin (16) winner; Chartiers Valley (2) vs. McKeesport (15); Woodland Hills (3) vs. Butler (14); Mt. Lebanon (4) vs. Kiski Area (13); Hempfield (5) vs. Bethel Park (12); Penn-Trafford (6) vs. Central Catholic (12); North Allegheny (7) vs. Plum (10); Gateway (8) vs. Seneca Valley (9).

CLASS AAA

I'm only giving the top 12 seeds:

1. New Castle. 2. Montour. 3. Hampton. 4. Keystone Oaks. 5. South Fayette. 6. Greensburg Salem. 7. Uniontown. 8. West Mifflin. 9. Mars. 10. Blackhawk. 11. Central Valley. 12. Beaver.

CLASS AA

Top 12 seeds:

1. Beaver Falls. 2. Monessen. 3. Sto-Rox. 4. Summit Academy. 5. Greensburg Central Catholic. 6. Wilkinsburg. 7. Shady Side Academy. 8. Quaker Valley. 9. Frazier. 10. Seton-LaSalle. 11. Jeannette. 12. Shenango.

CLASS A

1. Lincoln Park (1) vs. Carmichaels (16); North Catholic (2) vs.  Jefferson-Morgan (15); Clairton (3) vs. Western Beaver (14); Serra (4) vs. Quigley (13); Vincentian (5) vs. Avella (12); Cornell (6) vs. Geibel (11); Bentworth (7) vs. Union (10); St. Joseph's (8) vs. Sewickley Academy (9).

Comments (39)

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written by Ironman, February 12, 2012 - 03:25 PM

Mike - I can't argue with your seeds for quad A. It's about matchups. Shaler would play Gateway in the second round, which is more like a semi-final or finals game. Wow !!!!!

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written by t2pyah, February 12, 2012 - 04:30 PM

this illustrates difficulty in arriving at appropriate/equitable matchups - and one reason a more objective approach might have merit

one approach: pre-determined playoff brackets - based on finish in section

#1 team in a section would be paired with a #4 team from a section (different section)

#2 and #3 teams (of different sections) would be paired


or something like that

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written by anon, February 12, 2012 - 04:35 PM

predetermined brackets for hoop would be difficult for the pigtail games. Not knowing exactly how many teams will be in the playoffs really throws a wrench in the whole thing.

While there may be some judgement calls being made, the current seeding does turn out to be more fair. For instance, do Avella and Vincentian deserve to be ranked on the same tier simply because they were both 2nd place teams? Of course not.

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written by pittfan67, February 12, 2012 - 05:33 PM

I am sure that the WPIAL will get it right and that all seeds will be fair and equitable. After all, using the "Follow the Winner" system for determining PIAA playoff bids is a stroke of sheer genius.

I can see how Gateway would get an 8 or 9 seed, especially now after losing at home to McKeesport, but I can also see how they could be a 6 or 7. They are a talented team with two D1 type players. They have lost to some quality teams as well.

Also, don't be surprised to see Char Valley get the #1 seed just because Joe Bendel says that CV has played a better OOC schedule than Shaler. I'm sure he spent a lot of time researching the OOC teams that Shaler and CV played. In this case, Mport and Peters would change spots in the bracket where CV would be #1.

Here's a stab at AAAA...

#1 Shaler
#16 Peters Twp./#17 Norwin

#8 Penn Trafford
#9 Bethel Park

#4 Woody High
#13 Pitts CC

#5 Mt Lebo
#12 Seneca Valley

#6 Gateway
#11 Kiski Area

#3 Hempfield
#14 Butler

#7 North Allegheny
#10 Plum

#2 Char Valley
#15 McKeesport

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written by TheGuru, February 12, 2012 - 06:25 PM

Sections 1 and 3 will screw up the pairings, but looking at their schedules, Penn-Trafford should be seeded higher than Hempfield. P-T won 12 of its last 13 -- with wins over Hempfield and third-place Kiski in that stretch -- and also has a win over a section winner, Woodland Hills, to its credit. Hempfield's best win out of section is either over McKeesport, a fourth-place team, or Double-A Monessen.

As for the Section 3 cluster, I would think Central has to be the one seeded as a "third-place" team because of a 3-1 record with the tied teams and a more difficult schedule. Separating Butler and Seneca Valley is a bit tougher, and even though Seneca went 2-2 in the tie, I'm leaning toward Butler getting the higher seed because of its wins over North Allegheny and it beating Seneca Valley head-to-head on the final day just to get in.

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written by david2503, February 12, 2012 - 06:33 PM

There's one thing I can't figure out with your bracket Mike. How is Gateway considered the 2nd place team over Plum (3rd) in Section 2? The both finished 8-4. And beat each other once. But when you factor Woodland Hills into the equation, you get Woody at 3-1, Plum 2-2, and Gateway 1-3. Gateway's only good win of the season was against Plum (at the buzzer). Also, Plum beat both Woodland Hills and Gateway during their last meetings. Plum also has a win against a good Hampton team this year. I can't find a win like that for Gateway. So how is Gateway seeded higher than Plum?

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written by pittfan67, February 12, 2012 - 06:37 PM

Guru, It SHOULD be all about matchups. The better the seed, the better the matchup you should get.

With that said, the issue is that section teams cannot play each other in the 1st round so that throws a curveball to the seedings. As MW alluded to in his original post, the top 8 seeds should be teased out. IMO, the team who win their section should be at least in the Top 6 seeds. However, I have always felt strongly that just because a team is a runner up in their section, they should not be guaranteed a top 8 seed. MW also says that a team's "true" seed can be altered by 2-3 places because of the the fact that teams cannot play their section rivals in the round of 16.

It will be interesting in AAAA boys.

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written by david2503, February 12, 2012 - 06:46 PM

Here's what it should look like.

#1 Char Valley
#16 Norwin / #17 McKeesport

#8 Gateway
#9 North Allgeheny

#4 Woodland Hills
#13 Seneca Valley

#5 Mt. Lebanon
#12 Central Catholic

#2 Shaler
#15 Peters Twp.

#7 Penn Trafford
#10 Bethel Park

#3 Hempfield
#14 Butler

#6 Plum
#11 Kiski

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written by anon, February 12, 2012 - 07:07 PM

Looking at it AAAA is nearly impossible. Central/SV/Butler is a mess. Section 1 is kind of a mess. Even the last 3 are hard. Peters has beaten West Mifflin, Alderdice, McKeesport, and Hampton, but lost to NA by 50 and Norwin. Here's my shot at it.

1 Shaler
16 Norwin/PT

8 Penn Trafford
9 Plum

4 Hempfield
13 Butler

5 NA
12 Bethel

2 CV
15 McKeesport

7 Gateway
10 Central

6 Lebo
11 Kiski

3 Woodland Hills
14 Seneca Valley

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written by pittfan67, February 12, 2012 - 08:21 PM

The Section 1 folks won't like this one at all, but last year, their champ (Connellsville) only got a 7 seed...

1 Shaler
16/17 Ptwp/Norwin

8 Hempfield
9 Bethel Park

4 WHills
13 Butler

5 NA
12 Kiski Area

2 CV
15 Mport

7 Gateway
10 PTrafford

3 Lebo
14 Seneca Valley

6 Plum
11 Pitts CC

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written by BullSheet, February 13, 2012 - 10:20 AM

Cantral had tough time with Butler without Snodgrass. I really don't think directors will hold them in higher regard than Butler or SV, or at least shouldn't. It will actually be convenient for the seeders this year, they will be able to seed them wherever they want and make them travel wherever they want.

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written by wpialfan, February 13, 2012 - 12:04 PM

BullSheet,

Do you totally discount the 29 point victory PCC had against Butler @ Butler with Snodgrass? Why Seneca ahead of PCC with a split? PCC lost by 1 @ Seneca and won by 20 @ home. Just trying to follow your logic as to why the directors should not seed them higher (especially since they're the 3 & SV and Butler are 4 & 5 seeds).

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written by BullSheet, February 13, 2012 - 01:22 PM

The logic being that the directors will simply look at the 6-6 records for what they are worth and not weigh in all of the factors, because they are seeding a high school tournament, not the NCAA tournament. They will use that excuse when Butler and SV gets higher seeds so Central has to travel as far as possible...

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written by Ironman, February 13, 2012 - 06:05 PM

JV game - Central 53 North 37 4th qtr

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written by Ironman, February 13, 2012 - 07:07 PM

North 10 Central 9 End of 1st

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written by Ironman, February 13, 2012 - 07:23 PM

Central 30 North 19 Half

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written by Ironman, February 13, 2012 - 07:47 PM

Central 47 North 34 End of 3rd

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written by pittfan67, February 13, 2012 - 08:21 PM

I would hope that Central would beat North by 20+ at home, even in a meaningless game.

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written by Ironman, February 13, 2012 - 08:58 PM

Central 68 North 46 Final

Lincoln Davis scored his 1000 point.

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written by heynow, February 14, 2012 - 09:32 AM

Bullsheet and Wpialfan,
Central is a talented and dangerous team but so is Butler. They can beat anybody with Snodgrass on the floor, especially if he gets the calls he normally does (saw he shot 14 free throws Friday and comitted only one foul-kinda of like Michael Jordan in his hey day - playing by different rules.)

I think your suggestion that Central will be conspired against is off base. Seneca should be ranked higher than Central just as MW has done in his brackets. The two teams split head to head, Seneca has a better overall record, has played a more difficult non section schedule and four of their section lossess were by a combined six points with a loss to Shaler in overtime, Butler in double overtime, and NA twice at the buzzer by a point.

The real issue is wether or not WPIAl will have the courage give the section three teams their due given its by far the best section top to bottom in Quad A.

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written by vikings1, February 14, 2012 - 10:03 AM

SV's record is 13-9 CC 12-10 1 game difference... also tougher non-conference schedule????? Central played 8 count them 8 teams from outside PA... HEYNOW, your post is a little off...

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written by t2pyah, February 14, 2012 - 12:35 PM

Butler can beat NA with Snodgrass - but a big question mark if they can beat another team

after the first Butler win over NA, Butler lost 5 of the next 6 games

after the second Butler win over NA, Butler lost 2 of the next 3 games


in last 11 games - other than the 2 wins over NA - Butler has just 2 wins: win over North Hills and a 2 point win over Seneca Valley

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written by pittfan67, February 14, 2012 - 07:22 PM

I will say this: If Char Valley allows Snodgrass to walk the ball up the floor, the opening round game could be difficult for CV.

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written by anon, February 14, 2012 - 09:06 PM

Have you watched CV play? They're not letting anybody walk it up

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written by Joe D, February 15, 2012 - 07:50 AM

Wpial did a pretty good job with the seeding and brackets... it's more about matchups.
What I found interesting is how they coordinated the games for girls AND boys... for instance, quip girls and boys play at North Hills on saturday... 12:00 and 1:30. There are several schools affected that have both boys and girls playing in wpial and it seems they coordinated the schedule. Nice

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written by Joe D, February 15, 2012 - 08:14 AM

Wilkensburgh girls team DQ'd for using ineligible player... bottom line, AD didn't know the rule. She lived in the town but went to a charter school that had boys and girls BB... DUH..
Heres the question..
what should happen to AD??

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written by Ironman, February 15, 2012 - 09:28 AM

The right hand side of the bracket in AAAA is loaded with CV, Gateway, NA, SV, PT, BP and Lebo. PG picking CV in AAAA. They may not get past NA.

Lay your worries aside, Shaler will win it all.

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written by t2pyah, February 15, 2012 - 03:25 PM

my guess is Central is satisfied with their position

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written by Joe D, February 15, 2012 - 04:15 PM

What teams will win Wpial?
Which have the best chance to win PIAA?

I say Lincoln Park has the only chance to win PIAA...
the winners for wpial..
4A - Shaler
3A - Montour
2A - Shady Side
1A - Lincoln Park..

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written by Joe D, February 15, 2012 - 04:35 PM

Check out this story... HS BB team forfeits playoff to avoid playing a team they were involved in a football brawl!!! And GA wouldn't rearrange the brackets!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/georgia-school-voluntarily-forfeits-playoff-spot-rather-play-131118863.html

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written by anon, February 15, 2012 - 08:24 PM

CV
New Castle
Beaver Falls
LP

BF is really good. They have a legit shot at states.

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written by t2pyah, February 15, 2012 - 08:32 PM

agree about Beaver Falls - they were impressive in a win against a fairly good Sharon team

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written by Joe D, February 15, 2012 - 09:46 PM

Falletta... Ambridge HC resigned after 2 years.
I think he only won 5 games in 2 years...
What has happened to Ambridge... poor in football and basketball.
He coached at North Hills and Hopewell.

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written by wentz17, February 15, 2012 - 11:08 PM

Joe D I am just guessing but I would imagine any sort of athletes move to Aliquippa, Beaver Falls or Hopewell. Not sure at all I am more south of that but my money is on that

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written by Joe D, February 16, 2012 - 07:12 AM

wentz,
No movement out of Ambridge that I heard of.
some BB players went to Lincoln Park (Hosack).. but that is about it. Never heard of anyone from Ambridge going to quip, bf, or hopewell.
I would have thought the Walker kid would have transferred somewhere... (son of Myron Walker I believe from quip/RMU)

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written by ramblin man, February 16, 2012 - 08:50 AM

Heard from more than one person that the Walker kid has recently (this week) transferreed to Lincoln Park. However, I would guess that with the recent change in the coaching situation and the fact that Walker will be a senior, he may reconsider and probably be staying put.

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written by t2pyah, February 16, 2012 - 09:52 AM

Ambridge has the kids - they need the programs with quality coaches

one coach will not make a difference - need multiple coaches at the various levels (youth thru middle school thru high school)

Bobby Knight could take over the high school team and there would be little change - until a complete program is put into place

kids better have fairly good skills by time they reach 9th grade - or they will be embarrassed - embarrassed by kids that have been playing since 3rd grade - many of them almost year-round

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written by Joe D, February 16, 2012 - 11:06 AM

agree t2pyah...
Ambridge school athletic programs are poor across the board... MS to HS...

and the outside youth programs are poor at Ambridge also. Quips have a successful football program because Coach Z. assistants get involved at the twerp, midget, etc level of Pop Warner.

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written by t2pyah, February 16, 2012 - 11:34 AM

and you gotta find the kids (and parents) willing to make the committment

play spring ball ? no problem - until they (kid/parents) learn they need to get up at 7:00 a.m. Sunday mornings to attend the 8:00 a.m. practices

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